Curse

yesitsrob · Jan 03, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I do think the issue with it's range should be sorted - I don't think you should take damage from it if you aren't in the spirits range either, another thing that might work, multiple races

, not like i particulary care about that, but it would be funny to watch a human team trying an eoe bomb and being incapable of killing bobo the plant.

EoE wins matches, very good skill - it's one of iways ways of capping altars

Good skill? yes
Annoying

? yes
Overpowered: probably not, range should just be fixed

Everyname Is Taken · Jan 03, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

I think the skill Edge of Extinction(EoE) is broken. It works fine in PvE where there is more than one race, but its working in PvP is just an exploit because there is only one playable race. When used its outcome is totally unpredictable which is unlike any other skill in Guild Wars. People use it as a wildcard to make for lack of skill in terms of build/players. When used EoE can introduce a lot of randomness to the outcome of a match, especially in HoH where it gets so cramped in the end. I have seen too many skilled teams who looked like they were close to winning loose suddenly because of EoE. I Hope Anet takes notice of this and fixes it.

Like to hear more comments on it. Thank You.

~gotenks

And that is iway for you. If iway didn't use edge it might require some actual skill if any.

gotenks · Jan 03, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

If you reduce ANY skill to just clicking away on it, then nothing takes skill. You could say healing takes no skill because all I'm doing is clicking the heal button.

Gotenks, you simply have no clue about what you're talking about. You've even admitted that you don't PVP much.

Another one who probably looses a lot if EoE gets fixed, so he tragets me personally. I have already told you that I dont PvP much, but I am a good student of the game and I have the required experience to start PvP'ing anytime I want to. But thats not the point here. Any computer/console game is just CLICKING buttons. I have said it before and I will say it again, every skill in this game has a outcome which can be predicted after its usage, except for EoE. Dont take my word for it. Here are some quotes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

EOE is funny. I usually laugh when an entire team gets wiped out by it, even if it's mine and we're in the HoH (happened twice in a row the other day).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajora

Class has nothing to do with it. A Human dies, all humans take damage.

EoE is bugged, however. Somewhere it mentioned that Pets are a race? Nope. Pets, Ghostly Hero, Priests, are clumped into a race called 'Allies'. Don't believe me? Kill a pet under EoE and watch the Ghostly Hero take damage. Now if I could only get my Pet EoE bomb to work in HoH..oh boy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajora

Healing Seed, Leech Sigging the EoE from being dropped, killing the Edge heck even a cleverly timed Heal Party can make you survive an EoE bomb. It's not overpowered, not an exploit, it's just a really funny tactic that when it works it makes you chuckle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

Well I was doing Tombs the other day and there were 4 games where EoE was dropped. In one game all they did was drop it, one of their team died and all of the sudden we all died. In the others we all died but were victorious some how and the oter 2 we lost. Seemed a little broken teh first time, but the rest just seemed overpowered.

IMO I think EoE should only affect your profession or class. It would still be useful but not bombing whole teams (unless it was say....IWAY).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrent Frath

first of all...it hurts your team just as much as it hurts the other team (unless you're running a specific EoE build, which actually shouldnt make it to HoH anyway.

Also...does anyone know what kind of damage EoE dishes out? could your use conflagaration (sp) of fire and winter? then mantra of frost?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiles

I mainly focus on PvE so I don't really have an opinion other than thinking it is funny as hell to see an EoE bomb go off while observing a halls match... One in particular had all three teams fighting in the middle, the american team was holding the altar, and all of a sudden someone died, BAM everyone dead with 1:30 left on the clock. So they just lay there till the timer ran out while the other observers and myself laughed our asses off. When the timer ran out the american team won and was revived to get the chest.

I wish i had fraps running for that...

All of the above quotes are from this thread and relate to what happens when EoE is used. All of the others are just OPINIONS. Some people love the skill as it is right now. But that doesnt prove them right or me wrong. In EoE I see a skill that has an UNDEFINED outcome, dont give me a saccer/mesmer EoE bomb cause its outcome is UNDEFINED as well. Luck is part of the draw I agree, but having such a skill in a purely competitive environment that leads to luck being the deciding factor, is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

I pwnd U · Jan 03, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

its a good laugh if u observe someone who does it well. i was in a group that fought a EoE bomb group. they didnt do it well at all and it allowed me and the other 2 monks to use heal party and stop the EoE bomb from killing everyone. in fact we finished w/ a flawless. so if done rite it is amazing, if done wrong they are screwed.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jan 03, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

Another one who probably looses a lot if EoE gets fixed, so he tragets me personally.

Wrong. Keep trying with these ridiculous assumptions, Gotenks. I don't PvP with EoE in my build, moron. So I don't defend it because it's in my build, I'm defending it because it's not an exploit as you have retardedly stated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

I have already told you that I dont PvP much, but I am a good student of the game and I have the required experience to start PvP'ing anytime I want to.

What kind of grade school answer is that? That's like saying "I can beat you but I just choose not to" Why not just PvP instead of just talking crap? You only gain PvP experience through PvPing. Otherwise you're talking crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

I have said it before and I will say it again, every skill in this game has a outcome which can be predicted after its usage, except for EoE. Dont take my word for it. Here are some quotes.

What can't be predicted about EoE that's so different about any other skill? If someone dies and you're near the spirit, you take damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

In EoE I see a skill that has an UNDEFINED outcome

And what skill gives you a definitive outcome of a match? If there are any skills that already determine the outcome of a match then that means they're just plain overpowered. Get a clue.

But I guess I shouldnt expect much from someone named "Gotenks"

gotenks · Jan 03, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

EoE's range is as other stated. If you are within some one just out of range of eoe it will jump to you. If you spread everyone out in a line across the map then have 1 person die it will hit everyone inside and out of eoe's range.

People that yell "just kill the spirit" must not much exp vs eoe. Its always placed far behind their lines. If you go after it you are over extending your monks and putting them in a lot of danger. Just because you kill it does not mean you can stop another one from being laid. While you are after that spirit your team is being pounded on.

Spirit spamming rangers with oath shot are becoming more common. Just because you kill it doesn't stop it one bit. Since its chain is so fast only 2 skills can save you: Rof and MoP. Rof is iffy and no one brings mark unless its EoE protection.

I don't know what to do about it. You kill it you hurt you team chasing after it. You dont' kill it you hurt your team. There is no win answer.

I agree with you. But thats not why its broken in my opinion. A team using something thats hard to counter is part of the game, you can use it too. But when someone spams EoE they are not sure if the spirit is going to lead to their demise, or the opponents. I am against this randomness or undefined behaviour of EoE which brings luck into play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Before I descend into a fit of laughter again, I'll say that everything in this game must be an exploit if you use it properly.

Omg Chain lightning hit 3 people!!!111
expl0itz!!!1 admin fix plz!!!1 b4n th3m!!!!1

omg!!!11 wtf???2
h4x

Bad example there. Chain lightning has a very precise outcome if it is used, one which you can predict if you compile all the information about the enchantements/AL/Skills/Hexes etc active on its target. The damage from EoE is a function of the Level of Spirit, Number of people alive, Number of people who just died and their position on the current map so u can say something like this

Deoe = F(L, Na, Nd, P)

Where Na, Nd and P cannot be predicted by any human player dropping EoE. Hence making its behaviour random from the human perspective atleast.

Savio · Jan 03, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Knock off the flaming, you two. That's my only warning.

Beqxter · Jan 03, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

I simply don't understand why you keep insisting the outcome is undefined - EoE does a very specific job, and apart from the range "jumping" issue (which I was unaware of and does sound like a bug), it does its job well.

There are teams that run EoE bombs in Tombs, mainly as a lark. I've done it for a laugh myself. I will agree that it is unpredictable in that, if the bombing team doesn't place and sacrifice just right, they've just lost the match extremely quickly. If the other team has Life Barrier, MoP, or just a well-timed Heal Party, the bomb team has just lost the match extremely quickly. If the other team is clever enough to spike the spirit before the bombing team has a chance to res and re-bomb, the bombing team has just lost extremely quickly.

Heck, even your "one race" argument works against you in practice: a bombing team that has just bombed an IWAY or Minion build finds itself in an extremely tricky position: they're about to res, with massive DP and at a fraction of their health, in a field of hostile pets or minions. If it's a priest map they haven't yet won the match, and if one of those pets or minions kills even ONE of the bombing team, or if there are traps on the field, the whole bombing team dies. Everyone resses at the 2-minute mark, the non-bombing team now knows what they're up against and have a significant morale advantage over the bomb group which has already played its trump. Basically, it's game over.

I agree that it's a cheap gimmick build, but that doesn't mean it's overpowered and needs to be nerfed. It doesn't take much skill to run (you still have to be good enough to get past the ghosts, and a decent team will recognize an amateur bomb team from a mile away), but it does take SOME skill, and even in the best circumstances you still lose - dramatically - very, very often.

gotenks · Jan 03, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT

There is nothign wrong with edge and this guy cant even prove something wrong with it. FYI it takes a few plinks to kill its not like the spirit cannot be stopped

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippxero

I don't see the problem with it personally, a few hits and it's gone, plus someone should notice the guy putting it down and interupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deolmstead

Heck, even your "one race" argument works against you in practice: a bombing team that has just bombed an IWAY or Minion build finds itself in an extremely tricky position: they're about to res, with massive DP and at a fraction of their health, in a field of hostile pets or minions. If it's a priest map they haven't yet won the match, and if one of those pets or minions kills even ONE of the bombing team, or if there are traps on the field, the whole bombing team dies. Everyone resses at the 2-minute mark, the non-bombing team now knows what they're up against and have a significant morale advantage over the bomb group which has already played its trump. Basically, it's game over.

Your missing my point here on the "race" issue. Anet works really hard to keep this game balanced. This has led to many skills being changed. Whatever Anet does the final outcome of it is that for every skill in the game there is a counter skill. Lets take an example :

- I get hit by a skill(A skill that has a defined outcome, that is X no of targets will take Y amount of damage or All targets in AoE will take Y amount of damage) that makes me loose health - counter : I can heal myself with other skills.

- I get hit by a skill which gives me conditions - counter : I can use various skills that remove condition.

- I get hit by a Hex spell - Counter : I can use variuos spells that remove hexes.

- I am inside a spirits range (except EoE), every body gets the bonus/effect of the spirits, there is no DAMAGE involved which directly effects someone being dead/alive in the game.

- Now lets look at EoE, I am in a team opposite to the one that drops EoE. If someone dies I take damage which ultimately has an effect in me being dead/alive at the end, which is the same effect as as a direct damage/condition/hex spell has. I have been given counters for those, what about EoE, where is my counter, if only I can choose to play a different race, but wait thats not possible, right?

The suggestion most people give is "go an kill the spirit". I ask those people, would you prefer to play guild wars without any of the counters mention above? Just go and kill the person who is putting those on you. Easy enough, right?

Juicey Shake · Jan 03, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Well, killing a person doing this things to you is harder because of protective measures. EoE cannot be buffed in any way, so yes, go and kill it.

If you say you do not like PvP much, and you seemingly have no desire to enter organized PvP, what's your trip on if it's an overpowered skill or not?

I think it's fine as is, quick response times / some sort of counter measure [Mark of Protection, ewwy skill, but it works] is all it takes to neutralize the threat that EoE poses.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jan 03, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

- Now lets look at EoE, I am in a team opposite to the one that drops EoE. If someone dies I take damage which ultimately has an effect in me being dead/alive at the end, which is the same effect as as a direct damage/condition/hex spell has. I have been given counters for those, what about EoE, where is my counter, if only I can choose to play a different race, but wait thats not possible, right?

If you actually took the time to read people's posts you would have seen that a few have posted counters to EoE. Healing Seed and Mark of Protection are just a couple of examples of counters that are used after the spirit is dropped. And then there are less direct counters in the form of preventing the spirit from being dropped at all....it IS a 5 second cast afterall.

You havent made any valid points here. There ARE some buggy aspects to EoE that I think should be fixed but even with those, it's hardly an exploit. Why don't you let the people who actually PvP decide what's an exploit in PvP, okay?

I mean do you see any other threads screaming about this "exploit?"

Mystical · Jan 03, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

I'll try explaining how EoE works again (except the jumping part I didn't know about):

For example an EoE bomb group goes into battle with just mesmers (no secondary) with Illusion of Weakness and health low enough to kill themselves. They run into a group with 1 mesmer/necromancer. ONLY (and I mean only) the Me/N will die if the EoE bomb group dies all together. Try it, you'll see. To continue on, now that the mesmer is dead, any other mesmers and/or necromancers in that group take EoE damage.

Now do the same build, but everyone is a different seconday. Everyone will die.

Kilabi · Jan 03, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

eeehhhmmmm.. no

I playes EoE-bombs often with different types of cover for the bomb. Once we disguissed as ranger spike . 2 Mo/Me 1 Mo/N 1 M/N 4 R/N . We startet bombing all enemy down. I prefer a one bang bomb. Which means my Team just dies one time. So Damage calculation
2 Mo 100 Dam to a monk
7 N 350 Dam to necros
1 Me 50 Dam
4 R 200 Dam

If everybody has lets say 500 LP so only Nec/R will die. Warriors wont be affected. And eles wont be affected. If its a ele/mes he wont die. Calculate your self. I know it wont work the way u described it. But i know it worked the way i played it. Could be i miss a thing but i dont think its classdepending.

And EoE isnt a exploit. U cant predict the outcome? Can u predict Frozensoils outcome?

Teams which use EoE KNOW that they are effected too. They do the math in the build with EoE. IWAY as example: They know the have the healing going on. they know they spread damage all over the opposing team. They know Warriors mostly get killed 1 by 1. So there is one on my team low on health. The other team has 5-6 people low on health. If EoE takes effect it would chain-up and kill all of them and 3-4 of mine but not all. The chance too happen that way is high in this constellation. So why is it a exploit to think that way? Its just a tactic and it fits. Its not and exploit its dumb to put EoE if u dont know the outcome. If ur not skilled (lol what a word) enough to use it wisely the and the other team knows how to use it your doomed.
Thats my point of view.

Bee

Eder · Jan 03, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

- Now lets look at EoE, I am in a team opposite to the one that drops EoE. If someone dies I take damage which ultimately has an effect in me being dead/alive at the end, which is the same effect as as a direct damage/condition/hex spell has. I have been given counters for those, what about EoE, where is my counter, if only I can choose to play a different race, but wait thats not possible, right?

You might as well suggest that since you can't play something that isn't a "creature", all "creature" skills should be nerfed... or that since you can't play a Stone Golem, all "bleeding" skills should be nerfed. That's how much sense you're making with that argument.

I've addressed the "If I can't counter it, it must be nerfed!" argument back on page one. To sum it up: it's no basis for a nerf.

I suggest you stop replying only to the flames and take the time to read the intelligent posts which were made by some people, and you might learn a few things:

- Race is not a PvE-only concept. You made that up.

- EoE's outcome is not any more random than that of other spirits. The skill does just what it says.

- EoE takes as much skill to use as does any other spirit. You either lay it down and use it as part of a strategy, or you die from it.

- EoE affects both teams just like every other spirit. In fact, EoE is even *more* limited than other spirits, because both range AND race matter.

- EoE doesn't win matches by itself.

There's no law that says people can't waste a skill slot on a partly stupid skill. Most people who use it *know* how to use it. People who don't might end up getting themselves killed instead of the enemy, yes... but what's that if not a punishment for not being skilled?

Also, can you please try to answer this question according to your suggested version of EoE? Here goes: what should the death of a minion/pet under EoE affect in PvP, if not the other minions/pets that are in range?

It's a skill that serves a very specific purpose, and whose outcome is either fully under control of the team that used it, or liable to make them suffer the consequences themselves as well.

Roza · Jan 03, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Is the range of the skill really bugged?

"For creatures within its range, whenever any creature dies, Edge of Extinction deals 14-43 damage to all nearby creatures of the same type."

This means that if someone dies within the spirits range, damage will be caused to someone 'nearby' outside of the spirit's range, so that would not be a bug. However, 'nearby' is generally not very far for most skills, so even if someone is within the spirit's range and another player dies who is also in range but not 'near' be first player, no damage should result, if the skill description is correct.

I am not saying that the skill should be nerfed. Maybe the description should be changed by Anet, if it does not really describe what the spirit does very well.

And @ the OP: I am sorry, but I fail to see your point about pvp-pve. And saying you could be a great player if only you chose to play pvp is maybe slightly irrelevant.

Ajora · Jan 03, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystical

For example an EoE bomb group goes into battle with just mesmers (no secondary) with Illusion of Weakness and health low enough to kill themselves. They run into a group with 1 mesmer/necromancer. ONLY (and I mean only) the Me/N will die if the EoE bomb group dies all together. Try it, you'll see. To continue on, now that the mesmer is dead, any other mesmers and/or necromancers in that group take EoE damage.

Uhhh...no?
You can just observe IWAY and see...everytime something dies the warrior/rangers take damage. Heck I'm watching an IWAY match right now, a Mo/E died, everyone takes damage.

It's not based off class, just race, and we're all human.

Medion · Jan 03, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Also a way to counter:

Take a lvl 0 EoE yourself, it will only deal 14 dmg.

Takkun · Jan 03, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Look, you cant defend against the effect of EoE, so you better act quick to destroy the spirit, or have someone with about 1100 hp on your team, which is possible.

OoOo but I like the idea of bringing a lvl 1 EoE spirit to stop the high damage... but common, they will just put up another one. Unless they dont notice.

Tyrion · Jan 03, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

I dont think its an exploit, however... in case some of you didnt know EoE is bugged.

how? well even if your out of range of the EoE you still receive damage of it when a humanoid dies, wich shouldnt happen since then there is no way of avoiding the EoE.

It happen e me and my team like 30 times (since there are so many (IWAYs), every time i died a bug report but those people at arenanet are sleeping or something since the range of the effetc of EoE can be fixed easily i think... Also it was about 3 weeks back when i first gave my bug report to anet, so they should have fixed it already but they havent yet

Ajora · Jan 03, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

This bug was already covered, this is what happens.

If somebody is in edge range, an invisible bubble is put around them the size of edge range. It's almost as if Edge leapfrogs itself from player to player if the starting player is in edge range.

Kind of like dominos. First one drops, then the next, then the next, all the way to the end. Doesn't matter that the last domino is nowhere near the initial push, it'll still fall down.